February 7, 1995
Mr. D. St E. KELLMAN: Mr. Speaker, I rise on this
occasion to say from the outset that unless this Bill is
amended and amended in such a way that I have no choice
to…
Mr. D. St. E. KELLMAN: The only way I can
support this Bill is if it were amended in such a way that
I am forced to support it. As it stands right now, Sir, I
cannot support this Bill.
Mr. SPEAKER: Let us hear the Honourable Member.
Mr. D. St. E. KELLMAN: I have a situation where a
Bill - and I am convinced in my mind that this Bill was
brought to this House of Assembly to judge the Democratic
Labour Party. One only had to listen to the speeches
coming from over the other side this morning. All of them
saying the Democratic Labour Party is to be judged. Sir, if
we are to be judged, then we must be judged off the facts.
I am saying to you, Sir, that in 1991 we were faced with
three situations:
1) A cut in the civil service salaries.
2) A devaluation.
3) Laying off of people, and
4) excessive taxation.
I would like to ask the Government of today if they
are not going to cut salaries to tell me the option they are
prepared to take if they are faced with the same situation.
I am saying, Sir, it is strange that a government five
months old would bring legislation like this now and not at
the end of their term. If they had brought it at the end of
their term one could easily argue that they were trying to
protect the civil servants from the Democratic Labour Party
but they cannot argue successfully that they are doing this
right now.
Some will argue they are not playing politics. So why
is it they are bringing this Resolution when they have other
constitutional amendments to be made in this Honourable
House of Assembly. They said they are putting the workers
first I would like to know if the NCC workers are not
workers too because they have just reduced them from five
days to three days and the Honourable Member for the City
says they are putting the workers first. 2.30 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, I am convinced in my mind that we on
this side had no plans of cutting the civil servants salaries
again. I will tell you why. We set about a programme
where we rebuilt the economy. In 1994 agriculture grew by
1.9%, manufacturing grew by 3.4%. If you doubt me, look
at the Economic Report, Sir, Construction - 2.8%, inflation
fell also by .5%. Unemployment fell also and we promised
the civil servants in this country that when we were putting
this programme in place we said to them they would have
to accept a little pain but we said that at the end of the day
they would have seen results and today I am saying that
they have seen the results.
If we had said to them that we were expecting growth
and there was no growth then I would have said we had
failed them and we were unjustified in doing what we did,
but saying that we predicted that we were going to do
something and the positive results came out of what we did
I do not see why anyone should look at us and say that we
should be ashamed of a successful programme.
Mr. Speaker, there are reasons why salaries had to be
cut in this country and it did not start in 1991. It started in
1981. There is something called the CMCF and the
Honourable Member for Christ Church South can talk
about this. When I am calling a spade a spade I call it and
I tell the facts as there are. We had a situation where we
had people in senior positions, who are now hiding in the
United States, giving advice in this country who gave
advice to Prime Ministers, that he should allow the
manufacturing sector to export to Trinidad without
receiving a cent and the Central Bank would finance it.
You know what happened with the CMCF? Trinidad
tricked us when they took out all the money. Not Guyana.
The people keep saying Guyana. It was not Guyana it was
Trinidad because Guyana owed die money to Trinidad and
Trinidad owed it to us but they made sure they got the
funds and we suffered. Can you imagine if we had $140
million today invested at 10% since 1981 the amount of
interest we would have received?
Mr. D. St E. KELLMAN: You have to blame the
Governor of die Central Bank at the time for that too. Can
you imagine us allowing Trinidad to use that amount of
money at that point in time and then a year or two after we
had to run to the IMF to get money that we had? That is
not all.
I am sorry that my friend is not here because in 1985
the same person advised the Barbados Labour Party along
with the World Bank to borrow money from the World
Bank. Yes, the World Bank advised them to borrow money
from them and you know what happen? The advice was
given. My friend from Christ Church South toW mo on a
call-in programme that they did not need the money. Since
that I heard that repeated by other members from that side
so I am not going to blame them because if you have
advisers and they advise and you take the advice, you
might take a little of the blame but you have to blame the
advisers too.
They borrowed the money on the Japanese market
when the yen was .008. Mr. Speaker, you would not
believe it. But by March 31,1990, you belitve the you was
.008? No, Sir. It was not that By March 31, 1990 that
same yen had risen to .015, nearly twice th§ amount In
other words what I am saying is, if you had borrowed $50
million you had to pay back $100 million in less than five
years. In other words, if you were using simple interest the
interest rate was about 20% then. That is the advice from
the World Bank and the big guru at the Centftl Bank; that
you had at the point in time. As you see Sir, there is a
build up.
You also had a situation, and you cannot t>lame the
present Prime Minister for this, you have to blame the past
one, God rest him in his grave, where the cement plant is
in my constituency.
Mr. SPEAKER: Which one is that?
Mr. D. St E. KELLMAN: Mr. Barrow? You Mr.
Barrow is on record as going against any Japanese loans
so you would have to mean Mr. Tom Aclams and not Mr.
Barrow.
The cement plant, and I would never forget this. They
came into my constituency and said that we were going to
build a portable cement plant, the Barbados Labour Party,
Tom Adams, for $50 million and he said “No, he had this
magnificent plan, one for $200 million”. You know that
cement plant never put a cent in the Treasury of Barbados?
You can imagine having an investment, $200 million, never
put a cent in the Treasury but extracting money from the
Treasury every year? Can you imagine if we had all of that
money today we would not even have to talk about going
to the IMF, cutting anybody’s salaries, anything like that.
We would be able to give die civil servants 50% increase
because on the interest alone with that investment we
would be able to pay that salary increase to the civil
servants.
Mr. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member, I do not
really want to interrupt you but I take it that all of this is
leading to the Constitution amendment.
Mr. D. St. E. KELLMAN: Of course, Sir. I have been
linking it to the cut and the salary increases.
Mr. SPEAKER: I see.
Mr. D. St. E. KELLMAN: Not only that. The same
adviser decided that he wanted $100 million and we had to
lode for that money to finance and then we had to take a
salary cut so how can you blame the Democratic Labour
Party for that? But what is worrying me - and my friend
is back in the Chamber. I know the Honourable Member
for Christ Church South disagreed with the loan from the
Japanese. I know that as a fact because he told me so on a
call-in programme.
Mr. Speaker, we have to be very careful. Never again
in this country should we allow any Governor - and I am
going to say this to the Honourable Prime Minister. If he
takes the advice of the present Governor of the Central
Bank he will never go wrong. Not only because he comes
from my constituency, but because of his training. He deals
with actuals, actual figures, not flimsy projections. He will
not give him advice to increase certain people’s salaries
and forget about the others.
Hon. D. A. C. SIMMONS: Mr, Speaker, on a point
of order. The Honourable Member is speaking in such
generalities that I am not able to follow. Is he saying that
the former Prime Minister, the Honourable Member for St,
Michael South, only gave salary increases to those at the
top in 1990 to the tune of $30 million and forgot those at
the bottom? If that is the point he is making I would be
grateful if he would make it clearly,
Mr. D. St. E. KELLMAN: Mr. Speaker, this is about
facts and we do not have to run away from issues. 2.40
p.m.
But what they should do is to make sure that the
evidence we received in this House yesterday…
Mr. D. St. E. KELLMAN: I understood clearly what
you said yesterday. We regraded the civil servants’ salaries.
We do not have to lie about it. But you would remember
that yesterday the Honourable Member for St. Peter…
Mr. D. St. E. KELLMAN: You want me to say that,
I will say it. The Honourable Member for St Thomas
wants me to talk about what the Honourable Member for
St. Peter said yesterday when he said that the Supervisor of
Insurance and the Managing Director of the National Bank
would have to look at the pay package offered to them.
That is what you want me to say. I will say it.
But, Mr. Speaker, that is exactly the same trap that
the Democratic Labour Party walked into in 1989. I am
saying that if we walked into that trap in 1989 you should
not walk into that same trap. If you go…
Mr. D. St E. KELLMAN: They are talking about
walking into a trap. What trap? Mr. Speaker, if you
increase the salary of the Managing Director of the
National Bank you must increase the salary of the clerk
down at the bottom right up because it will be those same
people who have to provide the information for the
Managing Director* You cannot come in here and talk
about you are going to restructure something and interfere
with one person’s salary. The clerks at the bottom expect
an increase too. Let me tell you something. You are
laughing at this but this is a serious matter. Already the
lawyers and the Accountants are saying they want to be
treated the same way as the Accountants in the private
sector. Be careful. This is advice and I will not send you
a bill for it. No consultancy fees as yet
Mr. Speaker, we found ourselves in a situation in
1991 where we had to cut the civil servants salary because
of a build up from 1981. The Honourable Member for St.
Thomas would not deny it.
Mr. D. St E, KELLMAN: He knows that
Asides.
Mr. D. St. E. KELLMAN: Mr. Speaker,…
Mr. SPEAKER: Please continue.
Mr. D. St. E. KELLMAN: If we had that situation the
Honourable Member for St. James South would not be now
disputing whether we want an incinerator or not The
interest alone would be enough to give Barbados an
incinerator and we would have no problems with
Greenland.
As a matter of fact the solid waste…
Aside.
Mr. D. St. E. KELLMAN: Mr. Speaker, we are
looking for revenue. What we are trying to do and we will
show Government now how they could get revenue to
make sure that they will not have to interfere with the civil
servants’ salaries again.
Mr. D. St. E. KELLMAN: Yes, I would advise the
Honourable Member for Christ Church South. Down at
Harrison’s Point and at Ragged Point in St. Philip there are
two areas designated for land based tourism. Every time
that there are a lot of cruise ships in the Harbour there are
problems. You know that, Sir. What we have to do is we
have to please the captains and passengers of the cruise
ships and we have to provide the facilities.
The Democratic Labour Party had started a
programme at Ragged Point and at Harrison’s Point and I
am saying to the Government to move swiftly to make…
Mr. D. St. E. KELLMAN: Yes, they have started. We
had feasibility studies and everything, Sir. I hope you do
not represent that constituency.
I am saying that the facilities are in place. All they
have to do is move swiftly to put them in place to make
sure that we can tap the necessary foreign exchange and
revenue from those cruise ships. If you put them in place
swiftly you would get enough money to buy an incinerator
for this country in the same way that you have enough
money to get 3 sewerage plants, you would get enough to
get an incinerator.
The civil servants in this country do not have to fear
the Democratic Labour Party because they know that if we
were faced with a choice between devaluation and sending
them home that we would not devalue the dollar or send
them home. What they have to ask is what choice
the Barbados Labour Party will take. This is what I want
them to tell us today. I would like them to explain to me
if they are faced with the same situation what choice would
they make in that particular matter.
I am a bit worried too, Mr. Speaker. In their
Manifesto on page 21 they are making a bold statement
and I should like you to disassociate yourself from this:
“Never again in this country will it be possible for a
Government to reduce earnings.”
Mr. Speaker, Sir, tell me how that is possible. Never again
in this country would a Government be able to reduce
salaries.
I would like to see the Amendment coming to this
House to guarantee me that this would never happen again.
I thought that they would have gone one step further and
they would have put clauses 2 and 3 never again in this
country would there be any talk about devaluation. Never
again in this country would there be any talk about sending
home people. Lay-offs or anything like that
Mr. Speaker, if you are on the workers’ side you
cannot pick one item and decide that you are going to rule
on that one item without ruling on all the other items. The
civil servants must be sure that they are so protected that
nothing can interfere with them.
I know the Honourable Member for Christ Church
South will agree with me on this.
Mr. D. St. E. KELLMAN: I did not say that you have
spoken, I said you would agree with me. Because he is
aware that in the parish of St. Lucy they are raising
dolphins so I am told by him and I agree, sea moss…
Mr. D. St. E. KELLMAN: I know. If they put a
landfill down there the leachate will come to Half Moon
Fort and destroy all the dolphins and the sea moss, et
cetera.
Mr. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member I take it
you are dealing with the matter which is before the House.
Mr. D. St. E. KELLMAN: Sir, we are dealing with
salary cuts and in order to get salary cuts and to protect
salary cuts you must get income. If we are having dolphins
at Half Moon Fort, sea moss, lobsters, et cetera there is no
income so you cannot guarantee anybody anything. Do you
understand where I am coming from, Sir?
Mr. SPEAKER: Eventually, we would get to the Bill
before the House.
Mr. D. St. E. KELLMAN: I have always been
speaking to the Bill before the House, Sir.
I am not going to do like the other side to come and
say we will not cut your salaries and yet still not to tell
them how you are going to protect the revenue of this
country. That is exactly what I am doing. I am showing
them how they could protect the revenue of this country.
There is no need for foreign exchange. You do not have to
spend foreign exchange. We are going to save you some.
Another worrying factor in this debate is that we have
been hearing the name Gladwyn King. All the time we are
hearing this name Gladwyn King. The one admission I am
not hearing is that she was ill-advised. They cannot
challenge me on that Can you imagine you have a
situation where Parliamentarians on that side took a salary
cut and they were lawyers and none of them went to court.
But they got a civil servant Gladwyn King to go to court.
Do you understand what is happening, Sir? My good friend
from St. Thomas…
Mr. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member, I am not
so clear about your imputation there. What are you saying
about the Honourable Members?
Mr. D. St E. KELLMAN: I am not questioning their
integrity. I would not do that. One thing I would not do is
to get personal, Sir. I am not doing that, Sir. One thing I
will not do is get personal, Sir. I have fought campaigns,
people have said all sorts of things about me and I do not
get personal because I am in here to do a job, to represent
my people, and personalities are not important, Sir. We are
here to do a job and if we are to set an example to the
young people out there that is the way we must go. 2.50
p.m.
Mr. SPEAKER: It was not so clear to the Chair when
you said that the Honourable Members over there who are
all lawyers that they got…
Mr. D. St. E. KELLMAN: I said all the lawyers over
there did not take it to court. That is not a lie, Sir, because
if not I could sit down and let…
Mr. SPEAKER: Proceed.
Mr. D. St. E. KELLMAN: Sir, one of the things I
would say to you is that it is clear that some of us in
Barbados do not understand our people. You have a
situation in a house where you have a husband and a wife.
The husband is working for $1 000 a month. He took a
salary cut of 8% which is $80 but he was told that
if he took that cut there is a possibility his wife might get
a job or that he might be able to keep his Mend in a job.
His friend is kept in that job and if he did not take that cut
his friend would have gone home and he would have been
begging that same civil servant who had his whole $1 000
for $200 a month.
Do you understand what I am saying to you, Sir? On
top of that, Sir, when the economy grew the wife who was
unemployed, applied for a job and she got a job.
Mr. SPEAKER: Let us hear the Honourable Member,
please.
Mr. D. SL E. KELLMAN: You have a situation now
that because of an 8% cut the family was able to get an
additional 8% back later on and a job bringing 100%
income for the wife.
So, Mr. Speaker, people want you to believe that we
were not a caring Government and it is strange we heard
yesterday about the expansion in the tourism industry.
Mr. Speaker, we heard that the investors had no
confidence in us and they were not investing but yet still
yesterday I heard from the Honourable Member for St.
Peter that not only did they invest in upgrading the
buildings but they expanded their hotels and he helped
them.
So, Mr. Speaker, I would like to know if the investors
had no confidence in the Democratic Labour Party how can
the tourism sector spend so much money refurbishing their
hotels.
Mr. D. SL E. KELLMAN: They knew an election was
coming that is why they would have waited until after the
elections to do it and not before.
I would hope, Mr. Speaker, that never again in this
country at any time any Member on this side decides that
he is going to go and talk to funding agencies about
investments in this country, I would leave this party.
Something strange came out at Greenland, Sir. You have
a situation where there are people in this country talking
about they would go and talk to international lending
agencies.
Mr. D. St. E. KELLMAN: No, no blackmail about
this. He could not be a blackmailer because in order for
him to talk he had to get it from somebody else, Mr.
Speaker. It is said that the fruit does not drop too far from
the tree so we have to be careful. I am not party to
anything like that because this country is our country.
Mr. SPEAKER: Honourable Members, please desist
from shouting across die floor.
Mr. D. St. E. KELLMAN: I am not ganging up with
anybody to get rid of anybody else, Sir. That is a serious
statement, Sir, because when I heard it I was wondering
who it was that talked to the international lending agencies
about the Democratic Labour Party. The Member would
tell you, Sir, that she does not carry too much influence so
we have to be careful in this country. Barbados comes first.
Mr. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member has two
minutes to conclude.
Mr. D. SL E. KELLMAN: Thank you, Sir. Whatever
is done in this country, Sir, must be done in the interest of
the masses of this country because when you look after the
masses you look after everybody else. We in the
Democratic Labour Party have always looked after the
masses and by looking after the masses we have looked
after the whole country because there is a spin-off effecL
Mr. Speaker, I am saying to you that the Democratic
Labour Party found themselves in a situation built up since
1981 and I have some sympathy for the Honourable
Member for SL Peter because he means well but there are
detractors trying to make sure that things do not work in
his favour and we on this side, we have sympathy for him
and we will continue to protect him, even if we have to
protect him from some of his own members, Sir. Thank
you very much.
